tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post7912793656755522699..comments2023-12-26T10:22:04.630-05:00Comments on Things of My Soul: Sex and Bishop's Youth InterviewsPapa Dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-84395702710062530742011-12-02T15:22:23.655-05:002011-12-02T15:22:23.655-05:00I'm with you, ji. I too agree with everything...I'm with you, ji. I too agree with everything you said. Great comments.Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-65217553640611707242011-12-02T15:03:54.809-05:002011-12-02T15:03:54.809-05:00ji, it wasn't a matter of moderation being ena...ji, it wasn't a matter of moderation being enabled; it was a technical problem with my comment section. It's fixed now, so I approved your comments to post when I realized they'd been moderated. Sorry for that. <br /><br />I agree with everything you said, and I really, really like the distinction between when someone goes to a Bishop to confess or seek counsel and when a Bishop Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-7862542394883182732011-12-01T11:08:06.171-05:002011-12-01T11:08:06.171-05:00I'm glad moderation is on, so this thread can ...I'm glad moderation is on, so this thread can be ended. You don't need to post this, or mine from last night.<br /><br />Jeff wrote, "Attempting to correct ward members, including youth, such that they do not sin is the main job of the bishop. Ratting out teenagers to their parents is absolutely, completely unacceptable."<br /><br />You responded to his second sentence, jinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-1790315518420894122011-11-30T12:19:58.827-05:002011-11-30T12:19:58.827-05:00Perhaps we should apply the standard we use for ti...Perhaps we should apply the standard we use for tithing worthiness here -- the bishop asks the member to declare if he or she is or is not a full-tithe-payer, and the bishop records the answer. Both parties act in good faith. The bishop does not inquire about gross or net or deductions, because he knows that the First Presidency has made it clear that no one in the church is authorized to teachjinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-55988641948986587292011-11-27T14:07:55.614-05:002011-11-27T14:07:55.614-05:00Yes, Jeff, we appear simply to disagree - and you ...Yes, Jeff, we appear simply to disagree - and you continue to extrapolate things into what I've said that I haven't said and don't believe. <br /><br />I have NEVER said a Bishop should "rat out a teenager" - and I've NEVER suggested breaching confidentiality about what is said. I've presented multiple options to pursue, and inspiration can guide a Bishop's Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-40869185196635182982011-11-27T10:52:55.106-05:002011-11-27T10:52:55.106-05:00What if you couldn't be convinced of the error...What if you couldn't be convinced of the error in this policy of insisting that you sit in on the interview and/or become fully informed of its contents in violation of the interviewee's right to confidentiality, and the bishop had to advise your child that confidential meetings and interviews with ecclesiastical authority would still be required in order to progress in the Priesthood, Jeffhttp://zionlist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-15660180731052474412011-11-27T10:52:25.874-05:002011-11-27T10:52:25.874-05:00I suppose we simply disagree, then, but I for one ...I suppose we simply disagree, then, but I for one would feel vastly betrayed if a bishop with whom I interviewed as a teenager (not to mention an adult ;) ) felt that there was no need for confidentiality when I confessed that I didn't know if I had broken the Law of Chastity, and he went and told my parents and/or quorum leaders without my consent. The bishop should man up and answer the Jeffhttp://zionlist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-83299752057434678212011-11-27T10:19:13.230-05:002011-11-27T10:19:13.230-05:00Yes, I do believe that "I don't know"...Yes, I do believe that "I don't know" is not a "confession" in any way and doesn't need to be treated like one. It is an opportunity (and need) for instruction, but that instruction doesn't have to come from the Bishop. <br /><br />That is VERY different than other meetings with the Bishop where confidential information is shared. "I don't know" (Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-46637092309360059632011-11-27T10:18:11.278-05:002011-11-27T10:18:11.278-05:00OK, if you say the bishop has personally verified ...OK, if you say the bishop has personally verified that he taught that it was a "great sin" to date steady or kiss, I obviously have no ground on which to challenge that. I did ask some other questions that are important. Do you not believe that the bishop is entitled to make such a proclamation as a common judge in Israel? Is your entire approach that only confessions are confidential, Jeffhttp://zionlist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-14307486881153002832011-11-27T10:13:39.402-05:002011-11-27T10:13:39.402-05:00Jeff, this is the second time in your comments you...Jeff, this is the second time in your comments you've questioned the accuracy of concerns expressed. In each case, the person expressing the concern has stated that they are aware of improper instances. Let me make it as clear as I can: <br /><br />I KNOW of more than once instance like what I described. There is NO ambiguity in that knowledge. What was said was verified to me personally Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-86336222614859805512011-11-27T10:11:21.178-05:002011-11-27T10:11:21.178-05:00>"'I don't know' isn't a c...>"'I don't know' isn't a confession - and there is no inviolable rule of any kind for interviews outside of confessions."<br /><br />You posit, then, that "I don't know if I violated the Law of Chastity" does not fall under the Church's standard of confidentiality? I have always considered the bishop's office sacrosanct; I know there have been Jeffhttp://zionlist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-42879099259468084932011-11-27T10:08:19.604-05:002011-11-27T10:08:19.604-05:00I also have some questions about the consistency o...I also have some questions about the consistency of the accounts you're following. Do you really believe that bishops taught it was a "great sin" to kiss someone or to date steadily before high school? As bishops are morally bound not to comment on such accounts, and teenagers are prone to false extrapolation or exaggeration of details to displace fault, you have no suspicion that Jeffhttp://zionlist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-80797166701670986432011-11-27T10:08:05.665-05:002011-11-27T10:08:05.665-05:00To be clearer, I said the Bishop can ask about vio...To be clearer, I said the Bishop can ask about violations. It's the "I don't know" where I said they shouldn't dig for details. The question can be asked again once the standard has been taught or re-taught.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-78847916933646247342011-11-27T10:05:42.433-05:002011-11-27T10:05:42.433-05:00"I don't know" isn't a confessio..."I don't know" isn't a confession - and there is no inviolable rule of any kind for interviews outside of confessions. <br /><br />Again, we too often conflate things that shouldn't be conflated, and there is a HUGE difference between a confession and things that come up in the flow of an interview that aren't confessions, in and of themselves.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-9375071608099688132011-11-27T03:47:22.771-05:002011-11-27T03:47:22.771-05:00Thanks for the increased explanation PapaD, that d...Thanks for the increased explanation PapaD, that does help clarify your position a bit. But doesn't your list of options overlook one of the cardinal rules of confession to an ecclesiastical leader: absolute confidence in an interview or confession? This rules is so cardinal, in fact, that many secular legal systems recognize and protect it, granting immunity to preachers who fail to report Jeffhttp://zionlist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-18562630739281696872011-11-26T18:34:07.496-05:002011-11-26T18:34:07.496-05:00We're not adversarial people.We loved our Bish...We're not adversarial people.We loved our Bishop,and our stake president.<br /><br />I think both were tired,and made a mistake,which they tacitly conceded.<br /><br />My daughter was and is a very sensitive girl-I don't think that is unusual amongst young people,neither do either of those facts make the situation 'fishy'. Insult upon injury,but I guess I invited that.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-90538722239049240892011-11-26T14:40:08.655-05:002011-11-26T14:40:08.655-05:00For all of the reasons we've discussed in this...For all of the reasons we've discussed in this thread, I believe it is better to approach sex and youth interviews in a different manner than we have historically.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-90570295894798189432011-11-26T14:39:37.709-05:002011-11-26T14:39:37.709-05:00As to the point of when a negative situation is ta...As to the point of when a negative situation is taken to someone "above" a Bishop: <br /><br />I have interacted with many Bishops and Stake Presidents in my life. Almost without fail, they have been kind, caring, wonderful, humble men who would not do anything intentionally to harm a child or youth of any age. I mean that sincerely. <br /><br />I need to be very clear upfront. I doPapa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-44769931244601068022011-11-26T14:15:35.852-05:002011-11-26T14:15:35.852-05:00Jeff, thanks for your clarification - and your ton...Jeff, thanks for your clarification - and your tone. I appreciate both. My response will take two comments. <br /><br />1) I've gone back over the post, reading carefully as if I hadn't written it, and I can see where your main concern is a reasonable reading. I skipped something that was intuitive to me, but it wasn't clear in the OP. I apologize for that. <br /><br />Let me Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-84113790984794368852011-11-26T13:28:29.780-05:002011-11-26T13:28:29.780-05:00>"Again, I go with the CHI on this one - w...>"Again, I go with the CHI on this one - which is the LDS Church's official position with regard to youth interviews. It says interviewers are NOT to ask ANYTHING that might arouse curiosity - and that's an incredibly broad standard."<br /><br />I suppose we do disagree, but I find this to be a false equivocation. Your post says that the only sexual discussion in which a Jeffhttp://zionlist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-47663668687165179712011-11-24T17:51:26.576-05:002011-11-24T17:51:26.576-05:00Thankyou PapaD,your comment reflected our experien...Thankyou PapaD,your comment reflected our experience.when we raised this issue with our stake leadership they did indeed relexively support their Bishop,who did indeed cause damage to many in our ward.We have been picking up the pieces ever since.<br /><br />It has been very difficult for our daughter to unpick what had been communicated to her about her unworthiness and indeed sinful nature,fromAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-30635729345956366132011-11-24T12:55:03.508-05:002011-11-24T12:55:03.508-05:00Jeff, I respect your view on this, but I just have...Jeff, I respect your view on this, but I just have too much experience with really bad cases to agree fully. <br /><br />Again, I go with the CHI on this one - which is the LDS Church's official position with regard to youth interviews. It says interviewers are NOT to ask ANYTHING that might arouse curiosity - and that's an incredibly broad standard. That's my standard - and all I&Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-28468164557420928932011-11-24T12:40:30.004-05:002011-11-24T12:40:30.004-05:00I believe and accept that bishops can abuse their ...I believe and accept that bishops can abuse their position just as anyone else can. If a bishop is prying into lurid or graphic detail, the questions should be refused and the interviewee should walk out if the bishop insists on an answer. I also believe a bishop is capable of abusing his congregants and that this should not be tolerated <b>at all</b>. I think that delving into the wrong details Jeffhttp://zionlist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-1257158153180921962011-11-24T12:40:02.439-05:002011-11-24T12:40:02.439-05:00PapaD, your post states unequivocally that you wil...PapaD, your post states unequivocally that you will not allow your bishop to address sexual topics with your children in a closed-door setting. I still think this is extreme, although I guess it extrapolates beyond bishops (i.e., you don't want other authority figures addressing sexual topics with your children behind closed doors either). I understand now that it's not discussion of sex Jeffhttp://zionlist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-39055750185176705422011-11-23T18:14:56.900-05:002011-11-23T18:14:56.900-05:00Hope Jeff comes back-this has been a very informat...Hope Jeff comes back-this has been a very informative discussion.I would like Jeff to know that a very well intended Bishop's intervention has damaged my daughter for the past ten years.We have yet to discover the full extent of the damage in her life.<br /><br />Our youth are so vulnerable,particularly those who most want to comply with what they have been given to understand as the Lord'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com