tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post6946476525648146075..comments2023-12-26T10:22:04.630-05:00Comments on Things of My Soul: Presiding: An Evolution of DefinitionPapa Dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-15868080743625624312011-02-11T10:28:32.115-05:002011-02-11T10:28:32.115-05:00Oh, and the idea that one of us has the ultimate a...Oh, and the idea that one of us has the ultimate and final say in everything if there is a disagreement of some kind is NOT how I read the Proclamation - nor is it how I want it to be. I take VERY seriously the idea that those who are TWO prior to marriage become ONE after marriage - and that, imo, means we are each 50% of the new 100%, not that I am a majority percent and she is a minority Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-12531913167931708872011-02-10T23:18:27.156-05:002011-02-10T23:18:27.156-05:00Strong Man, that wasn't an implication; it was...Strong Man, that wasn't an implication; it was a joke. I probably should have made that even clearer than just typing (*grin*). That implication is not accurate for my marriage - just to make that unmistakably clear.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-17559023366306863512011-02-10T16:02:46.622-05:002011-02-10T16:02:46.622-05:00Similar to several comments above, I see the procl...Similar to several comments above, I see the proclamation supporting and right in line with numerous biblical scriptures, Book of Mormon examples, etc, in which fathers preside in every bit the same way as a Bishop presides over the ward.<br /><br />What do you do, then when it's really decision time and you fundamentally disagree with your wife--who wins? Who should win?<br /><br />My blog,Strong Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03397861817336193206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-17095926113594188592009-01-15T15:36:00.000-05:002009-01-15T15:36:00.000-05:00Ray:From my reading, widtsoe agrees with you.Ray:<BR/><BR/>From my reading, <A HREF="http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2007/05/widtsoe-on-women-gender-differences/389/" REL="nofollow">widtsoe</A> agrees with you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-68172317446578571072008-11-02T21:23:00.000-05:002008-11-02T21:23:00.000-05:00Howard, thank you for that clarification.Howard, thank you for that clarification.Mama Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02647417825144481742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-31385006454944988622008-11-02T20:38:00.000-05:002008-11-02T20:38:00.000-05:00Mama D,My intension is to explore the ideas put fo...Mama D,<BR/>My intension is to explore the ideas put forth in the OP and the comments, not to imply anything personal about you, Papa D or your marriage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-34691140442197418492008-11-02T20:37:00.000-05:002008-11-02T20:37:00.000-05:00Anonymous, I certainly don't view honest disagreem...Anonymous, I certainly don't view honest disagreement as contention.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-24720738688354855392008-11-02T17:55:00.000-05:002008-11-02T17:55:00.000-05:00Is honestly disagreeing being viewed as contentiou...Is honestly disagreeing being viewed as contentious here? I think this is a very important question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-1836297872903298012008-11-02T14:56:00.000-05:002008-11-02T14:56:00.000-05:00One more thing and then I'm out of this conversati...One more thing and then I'm out of this conversation.<BR/><BR/>Howard, based on your answers to Papa about how you and your wife handle decisions about "A" and "B" - I reiterate what I said about both of you agreeing far more than you both realize. Papa also could have written what you said about seeking the Lord's counsel, and discussing and making decisions together without contention.Mama Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02647417825144481742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-20411492507546198372008-11-02T14:28:00.000-05:002008-11-02T14:28:00.000-05:00Howard, nothing I said could reasonably be constru...Howard, nothing I said could reasonably be construed to mean that I believe the father should not be the one to preside, or that presiding is not a divine or gendered appointment, or that our family does not follow these principles. We do not "disrespect this patriarchal order," which was implied in your timing of the use of the JFS quote.<BR/><BR/>I repeat what I said:<BR/><BR/>Just to make it Mama Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02647417825144481742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-50603385889308862502008-11-02T13:12:00.000-05:002008-11-02T13:12:00.000-05:00By mundane to the extent that you mean common; ord...By mundane to the extent that you mean common; ordinary and banal the outcome is far less importance that being able to make a decision without strife. Contention is of the devil. Couples can sort this out for themselves keeping in mind that fathers can delegate and God clearly gives mothers responsibility for nurturing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-13981418688472788392008-11-02T12:47:00.001-05:002008-11-02T12:47:00.001-05:00Papa D: What if the husband is not in tune, won't ...Papa D: <I>What if the husband is not in tune, won't listen to his wife, and won't meet with the Bishop?</I><BR/><BR/>If he repeatedly fails to lead in love and righteousness she is not obligated by the preside clause. But the question of following his unrighteous lead or not is the least of her problems. An evaluation needs to be made. Are they or is he being tested by this? Do they need to Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-61464630982314417122008-11-02T12:47:00.000-05:002008-11-02T12:47:00.000-05:00Howard, I also asked about the mundane aspects of ...Howard, I also asked about the mundane aspects of life and family life. (I don't know if there is a better word than "mundane", but I mean the decisions that don't have a direct impact on our eternal progression and potential exaltation - those where the Lord's answer is very likely to be, "It doesn't matter. Whatever you do is fine.") I'm not sure you answered that in your last comment, so I'mPapa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-87312645013695452562008-11-02T09:34:00.000-05:002008-11-02T09:34:00.000-05:00Thanks, Howard. I agree with what you are saying ...Thanks, Howard. I agree with what you are saying in the case where the husband is rigtheous and in tune with the spirit. <BR/><BR/>What if the husband is not in tune, won't listen to his wife, and won't meet with the Bishop? Does she need to follow him and accept his directives in that case?Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-10426859529910886372008-11-02T01:51:00.000-05:002008-11-02T01:51:00.000-05:00Papa D, For the past 4 years I have followed the s...Papa D, <BR/>For the past 4 years I have followed the spirit literally seeking the Lord’s guidance for myself and my family on a daily basis. Should my wife adamantly disagree with the Lord’s direction I would again seek his council regarding the disagreement and follow his advice in love and righteousness.<BR/><BR/>If a wife suspects her husband is not in harmony with the Gospel she can check Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-59196675067266542542008-11-02T00:09:00.000-04:002008-11-02T00:09:00.000-04:00Sorry, one more: What should a wife do if what her...Sorry, one more: <BR/><BR/>What should a wife do if what her husband wants is not in harmony with the Gospel? <BR/><BR/>Understand, I am trying to see if we really do agree in principle or if we disagree fundamentally. Please, humor me and answer the questions in this and the last comment as simply and directly as possible.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-24524873561540962002008-11-02T00:06:00.000-04:002008-11-02T00:06:00.000-04:00Howard, let me ask this directly: If you believe a...Howard, let me ask this directly: <BR/><BR/>If you believe adamantly that your family needs to do "A", and if your wife believes adamantly that your family needs to do "B", what do you do? Does the answer to that differ at all if neither "A" nor "B" has a direct effect on righteousness - if the decision is a "mundane" one and not of obvious spiritual import? <BR/><BR/>Rather than pursue our Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-84458654280555521762008-11-01T22:54:00.000-04:002008-11-01T22:54:00.000-04:00The Q12 pamphlet mentioned in my first comment sta...The Q12 pamphlet mentioned in my first comment states: <I>Fatherhood is leadership, the most important kind of leadership. It has always been so; it always will be so.</I> If this is true the age of the JFS quote is irrelevant and its content is still instructive today.<BR/><BR/>Papa D: <I>There is a HUGE difference, imo, between having the "right to preside" or the "divine role to preside" andAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-14950913716136279592008-11-01T14:07:00.000-04:002008-11-01T14:07:00.000-04:00Howard, three things: 1) In the context of this po...Howard, three things: <BR/><BR/>1) In the context of this post, it is hard to site a quote from that far back as relevant, unless you are saying that the way we use and assign meaning to words never changes in the Church. I think that's a very difficult argument to make. <BR/><BR/>2) I still don't see anything in that particular quote that would contradict anything I actually have said - since Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-51784082282471289282008-11-01T10:47:00.000-04:002008-11-01T10:47:00.000-04:00Mama D,President Joseph F. Smith explains: “In the...Mama D,<BR/>President Joseph F. Smith explains: <I>“In the home the presiding authority is always vested in the father…This patriarchal order has its divine spirit and purpose, and those who disregard it under one pretext or another are out of harmony with the spirit of God’s laws as they are ordained for recognition in the home. It is not merely a question of who is perhaps the best qualified. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-83402989510412550312008-11-01T09:42:00.000-04:002008-11-01T09:42:00.000-04:00Mama D: I believe it is clear that preside, provid...Mama D: <I>I believe it is clear that preside, provide, protect, and nurture are ALL included…in THESE sacred responsibilities.</I><BR/><BR/>While we seem to be coming closer together, this is where we disagree. Kiskilili said it well in Papa D’s prior post: <I>By divine design--a pretty weighty phrase--this assignment is gendered. Whatever we decide presiding entails, it's the province of men.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-3261111658805971682008-10-31T11:38:00.000-04:002008-10-31T11:38:00.000-04:00Thank you, Thora, for that thoughtful comment. Fe...Thank you, Thora, for that thoughtful comment. Feel free to contribute anytime.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-91207639646724662572008-10-31T09:06:00.000-04:002008-10-31T09:06:00.000-04:00This comment is totally just my thoughts on the ma...This comment is totally just my thoughts on the matter and not following the comment discussion:<BR/><BR/><BR/>My husband jokes that usually this statement only comes up between us when I say, "You preside. You get to decide (a decision that neither of us are sure on, and neither wants to make a decision) or you get to make the phone call, you get to be the disciplinarian."<BR/><BR/>IfThorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04564924243186464304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-65631587825932177282008-10-30T22:43:00.000-04:002008-10-30T22:43:00.000-04:00One more thing, which I wasn't sure I'd post... Ho...One more thing, which I wasn't sure I'd post... <BR/><BR/>Howard said "The Lord and the First Presidency crafted a very powerful statement; By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness. Why would they eviscerate it with a single word buried in the next sentence? <BR/>THESE must refer to providing the necessities of life, protection and nurturing."<BR/><BRMama Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02647417825144481742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3199387660357003170.post-21842223911619440932008-10-30T21:48:00.000-04:002008-10-30T21:48:00.000-04:00Just to make it explicitly clear on these threads:...Just to make it explicitly clear on these threads: As the wife/mother in this home, Papa unequivocably is a worthy presider. He presides in love. He provides for and protects his family. I primarily nurture our children. We work together to fulfill these responsibilities. We are equal partners. We support each other in our divine roles with love and respect. We believe the FamProc is divinely Mama Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02647417825144481742noreply@blogger.com